Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. This is my personal Faithlife account. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. Thanks for the link to the article on Sproul, Jr. As many are probably thinking, what would Sproul, Sr. have to say about this? In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. . Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. As Ive said, I dont even like the word Calvinist. You do not have to stay in a church that does not respect your point of view. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. How dare he write such a long work! I will say they are much more composed personalities. My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see Turn the other cheek when your salvation gets called into question. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! I immediately connected with reader Oasis and it left me sobbing. I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. YOU are never in a position to disagree or agree with their orthodoxy. I might get around to it, at some point. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. However, they are limited, just as we are. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. F.B. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? Ive not tried to convince anyone that they are sinful or wrong for not believing what I believe. CALVIN! And its not because we cant or are unwilling (as in errant school children who just need some tutoring) to accept, Gods ways to be different from ours.. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. Calvinism Jesse Morrell. Im eagerly awaiting my next blog post, too The blog kind of fell off the wayside due to some personal stuff that ate up most of my time. Our sinful human nature craves it. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. I think that is biblical. I have been given books and literature from Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. Im glad you brought this up, though, I probably need to put a disclaimer on the Calvin Free-For-All post. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. Due to the successful ministries of dynamic authors, preachers and speakers such as Louie Giglio, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Kevin DeYoung and Josh Harris, Calvinist/Reformed theology is ranked, according to Time magazine, 3rd on the list of Top 10 Ideas that are Changing the World Right Now . Old Pollyannasdie hard. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. I find it troubling too. And when hubby realized he was a sinner in need of forgiveness, he knew nothing about Calvinism or Arminismhe just called himself a believer. With the Internet, you never know. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. We really, really need it. Im pretty sure that Calvin doesnt either, but Ill check on it. It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. Calvin is a little deep to get through, not to mention that the language structure is about 500 years old and not written in English. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Jacobus Arminius 21. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. Maybe it isnt. But I do not understand why discussions of sovereignty do not always point to love, to the simple fact that while we do not have enough information yet, on this side of life, we can be confident that love and fairness/justice is and always will be the answer and we will someday understand how it looks, And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. Sois that what we are saying? That is the only argument they have. By wrong, do you mean untrue? In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. A Adam Clarke Adam Harwood Adrian Rogers A W Tozer B Balthasar Hubmaier Ben Witherington III Brian Abasciano C Charles Finney Charles Swindoll Chuck Smith Clark Pinnock C S Lewis Craig Evans Craig Keener D Daniel Steele Daniel Whedon Daniel Whitby Dave Hunt David Allen David Arthur DeSilva David Bentley Hart David Pawson Dwight L Moody E F I became involved in the Way my freshman year in college here in N.C. (Greensboro). I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Meyer 17. And our needs are met by taking ground and accomplishing; because we were robbed of our inheritance and starved of purpose and significance. And I am fully expecting at least one learned, reformed MAN to give me a tongue lashing. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. So I Must Be! as the indicator. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love ones neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. In between cleaning out my car and doing other various jobs around the house, it came to me. And no, I did not. It must start somewhere and with those who are willing to give up their cherished arguments for the sake of something better. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. Bring them to heaven? Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. . He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. I always try to be sensitive, and Ive communicated before that I agree that theology should take a backseat. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. who needs systems & neat little boxes? In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. How to Resign from a Church I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. All are welcome to participate. I tend to doubt it but who knows. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. CALVIN!. The theology is weak. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. Ill have to look that one up. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I didn't quite understand the sin stuff. Prayer Requests They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. If you heard this preached, it might be from a Hyper-Calvinist church. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. So very reasonable. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? I admit, I tend to just let people rant any way they want to and hold them (so to speak) when they are done. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. So perhaps it carries untruth? Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. Prayers are sustaining me right now. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. This is the reason I stopped reading JAs thread on Calvinism, and its the reason I will my best to stop reading this one. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. You have nothing to do with it. @ janet: Wow. The promises are over the top. Below is an OP from 2006. Demand they defend their ideas. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, Hester, thank you for that word pictureit will lend an air of drama to my week . I actually believe that part of our problem lies in the human drive to tie up our theology into a logically consistent package, thus filling in, with human reason, places where the Scripture leaves spaces. My bet would be that some (many?) It was you! I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. Can God repair things? Advocate & Solicitor of the High Court of Malaya. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? 8. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. After all, there are reasons lots of men and women have bought into it over the last few hundred years. I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. My Aunt-in-law is one of the best living examples of Christ I know, I dont find her obsessed with doctrine, but she completely loves her neighbour. Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. I was open. But the rest of the bad stuff? We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. This is a false dichotomy. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. They do not understand why this brings othersgreat pain. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. This is a corollary to Julie Anne Smith's story above. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Lin wrote: To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. @ JeffB: As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. Glad to have someone who gets my background! Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. Most churches teach Arminian theology. He is still in a leadership position within the church. Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, (You must log in or sign up to post here. Although in the ever increasing post-denominational ecumenical trend, a lot of this gets blurred and you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Like one Cal would say, Cals do not believe Z, stop saying Cals believe in Z, but then five posts later, another Cal would sit there in the same thread and defend Z, say Cals were right and proper to believe in Z, and Z has lots of Scriptural support. I sure love the practical side of things. It stopped making sense when God began to show me in many profound ways that He loves me. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. I chose to believe in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God, even though I dont understand how those two things can co-exist. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. Membership Covenants I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. Im sure there are believers in every venue. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. It is used to define gender roles, the age of the earth, eschatology, and election. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. God is not the only worker in the universe, however. I opened it in Pages, then assiduously pruned out many, many pages of endnotes and bibliography, and numerous prefaces etc that werent Calvins. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. Believe me, Ive tried. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Youd be shocked! But something has changed in the last number of years. If youll forgive my expressing it so poorly meaning no disrespect to either of the TWW Jeffs nor to any other person who considers that Calvins conclusions were much the same as theirs would be its extraordinary how quickly the worldly order re-asserted itself. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. C.K. BTW-Wade Burleson told his church my conversion story which generated a few laughs. Does not compute. I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Because their first and most precious assumption is that truth is forever beyond any human agency. @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. I had planned to say the same thing to him. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. @ Arce: Thinks youre the bees knees. That means doing it even when the other person does not reciprocate. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. Everything. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? Association of Related Churches Should that be will be a Calvinist since that is in the future?!?!?! Many problems in churches and society should transcend doctrinal biases. Kentucky. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. There are lot of things that I dont see how it fits. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out circles, and here are the things that were primary messages: 1) God predestines some for salvation, and some for hell. The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. But that isnt enough. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. He does not back down on what he believes, yet responds to such denunciations with a gentle manner. . I had no reason not to believe. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. I am not wrong. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. Systematic theology books are plentiful. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? My jaw dropped open when I read the first paragraph of your post. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it.
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